Gary Demar vs Kent Hovind (END TIME DEBATE)

DEBATE TRANSCRIPT

What on Earth Is About to Happen — For Heaven's Sake?

A Discussion on Bible Prophecy, the Rapture, and Daniel's 70 Weeks

Kent Hovind vs. Gary DeMar | Hosted at Dinosaur Adventureland, Lenox, Alabama

OPENING REMARKS

KENT HOVIND

Good evening, folks. Kent Hovind here with the crew at Dinosaur Adventureland in Lenox, Alabama. We believe the Bible is literally true and scientifically accurate. God made the world in six days, just like he said he did. Everything was made in six days — so dinosaurs lived with man; they did not live millions of years ago. That is why we have Dinosaur Adventureland.

I have with me tonight Gary DeMar from Georgia — a Presbyterian who takes a slightly different position on end times — and we are going to discuss what on Earth is about to happen, for heaven's sake. My book I wrote on the topic is right here, and on my chart behind me. You said you disagree with a few things. I have never had anybody disagree with me on anything, brother — this is brand new.

So we are going to have a discussion and debate. Gary asked if I would go first and present my position, then he will present his position with equal time, and then we will just have a back-and-forth discussion over particular topics. Is that the goal, Brother Eric? We will start with the Rapture. First: a defense of the Rapture. Okay, sounds good. I will start then.

KENT HOVIND — OPENING STATEMENT

KENT HOVIND

I think we could all agree the world is in a royal mess. There are wars and rumors of wars, famines, pestilence, violence — and it is getting worse. I think most folks would agree we have got problems on planet Earth. Everyone is expecting their Messiah — somebody to come and save the world. Who is going to come and straighten out this mess?

The Jews have been weeping and wailing at the Western Wall, hoping the Messiah would come soon to save them and straighten out the mess. The Muslims teach their people that someday the Mahdi — the Twelfth Imam — will come and save the planet. Joel Rosenberg wrote a great book on this topic if you want to read about it. They teach that the Twelfth Imam is going to come and fix everything and force everybody to submit to Allah, or kill them. The Hindus teach that someday Krishna is going to come and fix the world's problems — there will be peace on Earth, good will toward men. The Buddhists are sitting around contemplating while they wait for the Fifth Buddha to come and fix everything. The Theosophists are busy waiting for their Lord Maitreya to come; they think he is going to fix the planet. All these groups are teaching that somebody is coming to straighten out the mess. The Satanists actually worship Lucifer and believe Lord Lucifer is going to come fix the world's problems. The Chinese Communists are waiting for their supreme leader. The North Korean Communists have their man with the unusual haircut who thinks he is going to fix everything. The Russian Communists are waiting for a supreme leader. And the Christians are waiting for the Messiah, Jesus Christ, to come back.

What is going on? Well, in John chapter 14, Jesus told his disciples: "In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you... I will come again and receive you unto myself." I do not think it could be more clear: the Bible clearly teaches Jesus is going to come back. Now, when, and what are the events surrounding that — that is what we are going to be talking about today.

In Acts chapter 1, after Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead, he met with his disciples for around 40 days, then met with them on a mount. As he ascended into heaven, "two men stood by them in white apparel, which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Pretty clear: you watched him go up in a cloud; he is coming back in a cloud. That is the obvious teaching of this verse. So we are waiting for the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, to come.

Now there are plenty of scriptures that are sometimes difficult to understand. But if you are going to start understanding what the future holds, I think you need to start with understanding how the world was made. In my book, What on Earth Is About to Happen — For Heaven's Sake, available at drdino.com, or on my charts here — the large ones are $25 and the small ones are $10 — I spent five years while I was in prison, unjustly, working on this diligently. I read perhaps hundreds of books on this topic from all kinds of perspectives, and I said, I just want to know the truth.

I had been taught as an independent, fundamental Baptist that the Lord could come back at any minute. There are all kinds of songs in our hymnals about it — "It Could Happen in a Moment," "In a Twinkling of an Eye," "Soon and Very Soon We Are Going to See the King." I was excited, thinking, boy, I might not wake up in the morning — I might be raptured. For 40 years I believed and taught that, and I am sorry to say it is not true. We are going to be here for the tribulation period.

To understand the future you really have to look at the past. The Bible teaches God made everything about six thousand years ago. About 4,400 years ago there was a flood that destroyed the world. Before the flood, people lived to be 900 years old — that was the time of the great dinosaurs, because reptiles never stop growing. When people lived to 900, everything lived longer, and dinosaurs lived with Adam and Eve. Noah took them on the ark, probably as babies. After the flood, things changed; life spans dropped to 400, then 200, and today hardly anybody makes it to a hundred. That is all covered in my seminar series. Most dinosaurs died off or were killed by man — they were called dragons during the first thousand years or so after the flood. Some may still be around today — that is covered in my video number three.

Along comes Daniel, about 600 years before Christ, and God gives him a vision of the future. The Bible says in 2 Peter 3 that the scoffers in the last days would be ignorant of the creation, the flood, and the coming judgment of God. I think many Christians are ignorant of the creation, ignorant of the flood, and ignorant of what is coming.

So in my book and on my chart, I take the position that Daniel was given a prophecy for his people Israel — a prophecy of 70 weeks. I am convinced this prophecy is divided into three sections: seven weeks, then sixty-two weeks, then one week. Most people who study this will agree. I think virtually everyone would say each "week" refers to a group of seven years — a cluster of seven years. When it says 70 weeks, it means 70 times 7, or 490 years, are determined for Daniel's people.

I divided the final week — the seven-year period — into five parts (A, B, C, D, E) on the chart behind me, shown in a yellow stripe at the top, greatly expanded. And the Thousand-Year Reign of Christ — the Millennium, from the Latin milli, meaning thousand — I also divided into five parts for ease of study.

There is a famous author — Tim LaHaye — who wrote an incredible series of books that I have many of on the shelf here. Those books about the Lord coming back capture you and you cannot stop reading, and the movies are fabulous. But it is not true, I am afraid. I wish it was.

James chapter 3 says, "My brethren, be not many masters" — that is, teachers — "knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." I have been a teacher for years and I have taken this verse very seriously. God takes false teaching very seriously. I am cautious about what I teach. If I do not know, I will say I do not know. If I have an opinion, I will say there are four theories on this and here is what I chose, but I am not sure. But if I am positive, I will stick my neck out. God made the world in six days — no question. It does not matter how smart you are, how godly you are, how sincere you are; it must be in accordance with God's word to be true.

God told Jeremiah to tell the people they would go into captivity. They did not want to hear it, so they beat him up, locked him in the stocks, and did all kinds of mean things to Jeremiah. But he preached the truth and it cost him dearly. The Bible says no prophecy of the scriptures is of any private interpretation. For 40 years I studied this book trying to figure out what it teaches about end times, and about ten years ago I finally settled on what I believe and wrote my book.

It is a bit like a Sudoku puzzle — you solve it by process of elimination when you look at all the clues. Scripture says there should be two or three witnesses on any particular topic. And with that principle, here is where Daniel started.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people" — Daniel's people, the Jews — "upon thy holy city" — Jerusalem — "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness." I think we could probably all agree that has not fully happened yet. "To seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy."

He goes on in verse 25: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah the prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks" — a score is 20, so three score would be 60, making sixty-two weeks. Why divide off the seven weeks? The only clue I can find is that 49 years after Daniel's prophecy was given, the book of Malachi — the last book of the Old Testament — was written. That seems to be the only way this fits together. I may be wrong on that; I am willing to listen. But there is a seven-week segment broken off for some reason.

The general consensus of Christians for the last 2,000 years has been that there is a 69-week period from when the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given. Keep in mind: this was given to Daniel while he was in captivity in Babylon because his country had been ransacked and destroyed. He was told: when somebody gives a commandment to rebuild Jerusalem, start your clock. Sixty-nine weeks later — 483 years later — the Messiah is going to come. After the sixty-two weeks, "shall Messiah be cut off" — that is always the biblical expression for being killed — "but not for himself." "And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary."

And in verse 27, "He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week." I have a question mark here because I suspect that "he" is the Antichrist, though there is some speculation and several opinions about who the "he" is in Daniel 9:27. In my book I cover all the different theories. I suspect it will probably be some Muslim leader from one of the countries that surround Israel — who hates Israel — making a covenant, an agreement, a treaty: "We will let you build your temple on our property," which is what the Jews have long wanted. The temple was destroyed in AD 70, and they have wanted to rebuild it on the Temple Mount ever since. This leader is going to make a seven-year treaty. "In the midst of the week" — that is, three and a half years in — "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."

Now, hold on: if they are doing sacrifices in the temple, they are going to have to have a temple built in the first half of the tribulation, the seven-year period. So during the first three and a half years they build the temple; at the midpoint he breaks the treaty: "We are taking over." This is exactly what Antiochus IV Epiphanes did as a type of the future fulfillment — around 167 BC he went in and sacrificed a pig on the altar of the Jewish temple and left it desolate. That was not the fulfillment of this prophecy, but it was a typology of it. "For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

So what is happening? The Temple Mount in Israel — that 37-acre platform in Jerusalem, called the Temple Mount — is where Solomon's original Temple was built. It was destroyed, and when the Muslims came into that region around 600 AD, tradition held that Muhammad had ascended to heaven from a rock there. So they built the Dome of the Rock over it. Now, some Muslim leader in the 1500s was told, "The Bible says the Messiah is going to come through the Eastern Gate," so they bricked it shut and put a cemetery out front — thinking that would prevent the Messiah from coming through. But Ezekiel 44 says, "The gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it because the Lord God of Israel hath entered in by it." That is where Jesus came in from the Mount of Olives on the donkey, and they put their cloaks down and waved and said, "Hosanna, here comes the King!" Three days later, they crucified him.

Interestingly, it has now been discovered that what was bricked shut is not actually the original Eastern Gate — my understanding is the original was further north and is now buried under a Muslim cemetery. So there is open land nearby, and the Jews would only need a treaty to access it. They are chomping at the bit to build that temple. They have it all designed, laid out, ready to go — all the materials are ready. All they need is a treaty and they will start building.

Theory number one is that some world leader will make a treaty through the United Nations; theory number two is that some Muslim leader will make a treaty with Israel. I do not know which — we shall see. But I take the position that this seven-year period is still yet to come. I take it to be broken up into two parts; in the middle the treaty is broken, and then comes the Great Tribulation.

Now let me go to Matthew 24. The disciples asked Jesus a simple question: "Lord, when are you coming, and what is the sign of your coming?" Same thing in Mark 13 — "Tell us, when shall these things be, and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?" And in Luke 21 — "Master, when shall these things be, and what sign shall there be?"

I laid all three accounts side by side — Matthew, Mark, and Luke — and they are all in the back of my book. For the next 23 verses in Matthew, 19 in Mark, and 17 in Luke, Jesus describes a horrible time of tribulation. In the middle of each account is the yellow box on my chart — the abomination of desolation, when the treaty is broken at the midpoint of the seven years. At the end of each account he answers the question.

In Matthew 24:29: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light... and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven... and he shall send his angels and gather together his elect." The gathering together is what Christians have commonly called the Rapture. The word is not in the Bible, but it means to snatch something away. He is going to gather all Christians who are still alive out of here. In Mark: "In those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light... and then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds."

The sun and moon going dark is mentioned ten times in the Bible, sometimes associated with an earthquake. Even blind people are going to know something is going on.

In Joel chapter 2, Joel said: "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come." I was guilty for years of confusing the day of the Lord — which is the Thousand-Year period — with the day of Christ, which is the Rapture. The newer Bible translations have blurred this distinction by calling the day of Christ the day of the Lord, but they are not the same. Joel said the sun and moon go dark before the day of the Lord. So the sequence is simple: tribulation — then the sun and moon go dark — then the day of the Lord begins.

In 1 Thessalonians, every chapter mentions the coming of the Lord. Chapter 1: "wait for his Son from heaven, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." We are not appointed unto wrath. The wrath is what God does to the world — that takes place in the day of the Lord. We are here for the tribulation, which takes place before the day of the Lord comes. Chapter 4: "I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep... For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him... we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede those who are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first." Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

"Wherefore, comfort one another." Jesus is coming back. He is coming in the clouds; a trumpet is going to blow; and we are going to be caught up out of here. This is a comforting passage. It takes place after the tribulation, when the sun and the moon go dark.

That is enough for now — we will save the rest for the Q&A. That is my position, after a long time of being wrong on this topic. Tell me what you think, Gary.

GARY DEMAR — OPENING STATEMENT

GARY DEMAR

My name is Gary DeMar. I am president of American Vision, based in Powder Springs, Georgia, right outside of Atlanta. I have been working there since 1980. The topics I address include what the Bible says about God and government — self-government, family government, church government, and decentralized civil government — as well as law, economics, and education, especially in the area of apologetics and particularly dealing with the moral implications of evolution. I have been working on a book called Why It Might Be Okay to Eat Your Neighbor — because if evolution is right, can anything really be wrong?

In many ways Kent and I probably share quite a few interests. One particular interest is what got me onto this topic. I wrote a series of books back in the 1980s called God and Government — originally a three-volume work that has been widely used in the homeschool movement. When I would go out and speak on that topic, there was always someone in the crowd who would say: "But wait a minute — we are living in the last days. The Rapture is right around the corner. All the signs are pointing that way. Why are you bothering with the issue of government? Why should we even be involved in politics? Jesus did not get mixed up in politics. My kingdom is not of this world. Our citizenship is in heaven. Since we are living in the end times, why bother?"

People look at the world today and see wars and rumors of wars and earthquakes, as if those things have never happened before. But they have. The 20th century alone had World War I, World War II, the Korean War — my father served in both World War II and the Korean War — the Vietnam War. You can go all the way through history and see wars and rumors of wars.

The crucial issue we need to deal with here is not so much the millennial question — it is the things that are said to happen before then. Specifically, the so-called Great Tribulation, said to be a seven-year period that is offset into the future. There are five different Rapture positions. There is the pre-tribulational Rapture: Christians are taken off the earth before the seven-year period. There is the mid-tribulational Rapture: Christians are taken at the midpoint. There is the post-tribulational Rapture: Christians are taken off at the end. Then there are two minor positions — a partial Rapture and the pre-wrath Rapture, which holds that Christians will go through the tribulation but will be raptured right before God pours out his wrath.

I think the pre-wrath position is probably the most accurate in terms of what is taught in Scripture, and there are examples that support it. But the big question is: does the Bible ever teach that this seven-year period is pushed off into the future? Is there a gap between the end of the sixty-ninth week — the 483 years — and the seventieth week? If so, we are living in a roughly 2,000-year parenthesis right now. That is the key question. It is not whether Jesus is returning at the end of history. It is not whether things are bad in the world today. The question is: does the Bible teach a gap between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks?

Because that seventieth week is crucial to all the Rapture positions. Without the final seven-year period, you do not have any of the Rapture positions. So what has to be proved is that there is a gap between the sixty-ninth and seventieth week. And here is something else you have to establish when you read Daniel 9:24–27: you need to find talk of a rebuilt temple. Not just any rebuilt temple, but a temple rebuilt after the one that Jesus knew — because Daniel is writing while still in exile. The temple had not yet been rebuilt. Jerusalem had not been rebuilt. So when Daniel mentions the temple and Jerusalem, he is referring to the temple that would be built in Jesus's day — the one Jesus referenced in John chapter 2 when he said, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews were thinking of the physical temple that Herod was rebuilding. But in order to propose a temple beyond the one Jesus describes in Matthew 24, you need a verse that actually says there is going to be a third temple. There is not a single verse in the New Testament that says anything about a rebuilt temple.

What about 2 Thessalonians 2? The temple mentioned there was still standing when Paul gave his directions regarding the man of lawlessness. What about the temple in Matthew 24? That temple was still standing — Jesus pointed to its very stones. There is not a single verse in the New Testament that says anything about yet another rebuilt temple.

And there is nothing in Daniel 9:24–27 that says anything about a gap between the sixty-ninth and seventieth week. You can read it. We are not supposed to import things into the Bible that are not there. There is no gap in the text. Furthermore, there is no mention of an Antichrist in that passage. If you read it, you have Messiah the Prince, and the people of the prince who is to come. Who says that is the Antichrist? One would think that if you see the word Messiah in the passage, and it is supposed to be about an anti-Messiah, the word anti-Messiah would also be there. You just cannot make those deductions from what the text actually says.

Now, what is the biblical definition of Antichrist? The word Antichrist appears only in 1 John and 2 John — that is it. And the definition is very clear: someone who denies that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. That is the biblical definition. It is not a world leader. And there are many antichrists — 1 John 2:18 tells us there were many antichrists even in John's day.

Today's composite Antichrist is assembled by taking the phrase "antichrist" and combining it with the man of lawlessness from 2 Thessalonians 2, the Beast from Revelation 13, the little horn from Daniel — picking all the bad guys you can find in the Bible and saying, "That is the Antichrist." But it does not fit the definition. In fact, the Westminster Confession of Faith originally identified the Antichrist as the papacy, a very popular view for many centuries. They eventually removed that identification, saying the papacy did not fit the biblical definition of Antichrist.

Here is a book — Christopher Hill's Antichrist in 17th-Century England. And we have published a book called The Day and the Hour — a nearly 2,000-year survey of all the different people who have been called the Antichrist, using the very same passages being used in popular prophecy books today. Why have they all gotten this wrong? Because I think they have misapplied the passages.

Now, I recall Kent's book referencing Luke chapter 4 verse 18, where Jesus quotes Isaiah 61:1–2: "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me... to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord." If you go back to Isaiah 61:2, the full text reads: "to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God." Jesus stopped before that second clause — he did not quote it. Most people say, "See, there is a gap — the day of vengeance is still future." I noticed Kent wrote in parentheses between Isaiah 61 and 62 that there is a 2,000-year gap. I do not believe there is a 2,000-year gap — that is something you have to import into the text. I believe that the day of vengeance Isaiah was describing took place exactly as Luke 21 describes: the day of vengeance is the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. That is what is being described there. That is the day where Jesus returned in judgment and judged Jerusalem, just as he predicted.

There is no place in the Bible where a certain number of days, weeks, or years is given with a gap inside the sequence. The 70 weeks would be the only place in Scripture where there is a gap in a numbered sequence — and none is indicated. There is no Antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9:24–27, and that is something you really have to pour into the passage from elsewhere.

And consider this: Antichrists do not make covenants. Who makes covenants? God makes covenants. Matthew 26:28: Jesus at the Last Supper says, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins." Jesus was confirming the covenant with Israel — that is why he came. He came first to the lost sheep of Israel; he was bringing the Gentiles in through the promise made to Abraham. Romans 15:8: "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers." That is confirming the covenant. The one who confirms the covenant in Daniel 9:27 is Jesus, not an Antichrist. You cannot find a single verse in the Antichrist passages — 1 John or 2 John — that says anything about making a covenant with Israel during a seven-year period and then breaking it. It is not in the text anywhere.

So here is where I stand: the key verses used to push the seven-year period into the future — Daniel 9:24–27 — do not say any of those things. You have to import ideas into the text that are not there. I am not willing to do that. No matter which Rapture position someone holds, virtually all are dependent on Daniel 9:24–27. And as I read that passage, I ask: where are those things? If you study the history of interpretation of Daniel 9:24–27, you will find that a majority of Christians throughout history never saw a gap between the sixty-ninth and seventieth week. Many of them did not deny the second coming of Christ; many did not deny there would be an antichrist at the end of history. But they did not base it on Daniel 9:24–27, and they did not come up with the idea of making a covenant with the Jews, breaking it, and rebuilding the temple from that passage.

So the key to all of this is determining what Daniel 9:24–27 actually says. That is where we need to center our attention.

OPEN DISCUSSION

KENT HOVIND

Well, let me give a response to some of that. I would have to strongly disagree on a couple of things. Let me go to Exodus 3:7. The Lord said, "I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt... I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians... and to bring them up out of that land into a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey" — the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, the Jebusites, and all those folks.

God told Moses, "I want you to go get my people out so I can bring them into the land." There was a gap between when they came out of Egypt and when they went in — a gap of 40 years, because of their disobedience. They went up to the land, saw the giants, and said, "We do not want to fight those giants." So there is a gap. Is there a gap between their leaving Egypt and entering Canaan? Yes.

GARY DEMAR

We know about the 40-year gap because the Bible tells us — God told them in Numbers 13 and 14 that they were going to wander for 40 years. That is my point: the text of Scripture tells you there is a 40-year period. There is nothing in Daniel 9 that says, "Because of the children of Israel's disobedience, there will be a 2,000-year gap." In Exodus and Numbers, God said explicitly there would be 40 years. In Daniel 9:24–27, there is no such statement. You have to import the gap; it is not in the text.

KENT HOVIND

You said there are no examples of gaps in Scripture and asked for one — I gave you one. But let me make this point: in the Isaiah passage you quoted in Luke 4, Jesus stopped in the middle of the passage. When you read the full passage in Isaiah 61, it says "to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord and the day of vengeance of our God." There is apparently a gap there.

GARY DEMAR

Does the text say there is a gap? I am saying the day of vengeance has already passed, if you take the preterist view — it happened in AD 70. All Christians are preterists to some degree.

KENT HOVIND

Okay, you are a partial preterist. Jesus told his disciples clearly: Lord, when are you coming, and what is the sign? He told them he was going to come in the clouds after the tribulation. In AD 70, did every eye see him? Did everyone who pierced him see him? Was there a trumpet blast? Did the sun and the moon go dark in AD 70?

GARY DEMAR

Yes, actually — I would argue that they did, in a sense. I can show you from Scripture.

KENT HOVIND

I would like to see that. But first I want to make this point: you are bringing up passages that are not numbered sequences, other than the one from Exodus. We know from Numbers that God explicitly told the Israelites there would be a 40-year period. There is nothing in Daniel 9:24–27 that says there is a gap.

GARY DEMAR

And in Exodus and Numbers it does not say there will be a gap of 40 years either — we find that out later, when God tells them directly. That is exactly my point: God made it explicit when there was a gap. He does not make it explicit in Daniel 9. There is no text that says, "Because Israel rejected Jesus, I am putting them on the shelf for 2,000 years while I work with the Gentiles." Where does it say that?

KENT HOVIND

Romans 11 — the wild olive branch grafted in. And in the Isaiah passage that Luke 4 quotes, Jesus stopped in the middle of the passage. He closed the scroll, sat down, and did not read "the day of vengeance of our God." There is apparently a gap there.

GARY DEMAR

But does the text say there is a gap? Are you saying the day of vengeance of our God has already passed? If you take the preterist view — yes, this happened in AD 70. That is the day of vengeance described in Luke 21: the destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus returned in judgment, just as he predicted. There is no place in the Bible where a numbered sequence has a gap inside it without the text saying so. Daniel 9:24–27 would be the only such instance — and none is indicated there.

AUDIENCE MEMBER

I think we are majoring on a minor. I personally would like to know: if you think Jesus already came back in AD 70, is there going to be an end of everything — a judgment — where Jesus returns again?

GARY DEMAR

Let me deal with what Daniel 9 actually says and then I will get to that. Here is my understanding. Jesus's ministry covered the first three and a half years of the final week. The next three and a half years takes you to the time of the Gentiles — probably indicated by the vision of the sheet coming down from heaven with unclean animals in Acts 10, when Peter was reluctantly sent to the Gentiles. That is the end of the 70 weeks, the end of the 490 years. The first three and a half years: the ministry goes to the Jew first, as Paul says. That is why Jesus on the cross said, "It is finished." Then in Luke 24, Jesus goes through all the Old Testament and shows that all those prophecies were about him.

The final three and a half years completes the period. But notice what Daniel 70 weeks says within it: "desolations are determined." The determination of the desolation is determined within the seventieth week. Now if you go to Matthew chapter 23, it is very crucial to understand that chapter, because it feeds directly into chapter 24. The reason the disciples asked about the temple was because of what Jesus had just said in chapter 23.

"Consequently you bear witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell? Therefore behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

Jesus is talking about their generation — not some future generation. Verse 37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!" And notice this: "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate." Jesus makes the pronouncement during his ministry that the temple would be left to them desolate — but he gives them 40 years, very much like the wilderness, only this time it is a time of blessing because the gospel goes out. People say Israel rejected Jesus — but the trials were held at night because they feared the people. What happened at Pentecost? Who heard the gospel first? The Jews. There were Jews living in Jerusalem from every nation under heaven. Three thousand became Christians in Acts 2, five thousand in Acts 4, and by Acts 21 there were myriads of Jews who had believed.

"For I say to you, from now on you shall not see me until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" Chapter 24 flows directly from chapter 23 — remember, there are no chapter divisions or verse numbers in the original text. Jesus came out from the temple, and his disciples came to point out the temple buildings. He answered: "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here shall be left upon another which will not be torn down." And as he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples asked privately: "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?"

I want to note that the King James has "end of the world" there, but the Greek word is not kosmos — it is aion, meaning age, a period of time. And Jesus answered: "See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in my name... You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars... For nation will rise against nation... there will be famines and earthquakes in various places." All of this took place before the destruction of Jerusalem. Acts 11 records famines during the book of Acts.

My key point: Matthew 24:34 says, "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." Every time "this generation" is used in the Gospels, it always refers to the generation Jesus was speaking to — without exception. If Jesus had a future generation in mind he would have said "that generation." "This generation" is a near demonstrative — it refers to those nearby. This is what Jesus is describing: a very local judgment. How could the disciples escape the tribulation described in Matthew 24? On foot — to the mountains of Judea. This is not a worldwide event. Luke 21 says: when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, get out of town. Matthew 24 is not describing some worldwide tribulation; it is something very local.

KENT HOVIND

Okay, now let me read Daniel 9 again: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people" — the Jewish people — "upon thy holy city" — Jerusalem — "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness... to anoint the most holy." Are you saying all that was accomplished in AD 70? Did he bring in everlasting righteousness in AD 70? Was the most holy anointed then?

GARY DEMAR

The 70 weeks of years do not go to AD 70. The 490 years end at the time of Jesus Christ himself — completed during the period of the book of Acts, probably concluded when Peter was sent to the Gentiles. The first three and a half years is Jesus's ministry to Israel. The final three and a half years is the extension of that ministry through the apostles to the Gentiles. So the 70 weeks ends during that period.

Now as for "everlasting righteousness": if Jesus did not bring in everlasting righteousness, we are still in our sins. He brought in everlasting righteousness for us — it was imputed to us. It is not talking about the state of downtown Chicago; it is talking about what Jesus did for us in his redemptive work. That is why Jesus on the cross said, "It is finished." Hebrews 9:12: "Neither by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption" — that is everlasting righteousness for us. That is what Jesus did. Antichrists do not do these things; antichrists do not confirm covenants.

KENT HOVIND

You have mentioned that eight or ten times. But many people make covenants all the time — lots of world leaders make covenants. Where in the Bible does it say the Antichrist makes the covenant? And where in the Bible does it say that only Jesus is allowed to make a covenant? Many people make covenants. The Antichrist appears in 1 John and 2 John — please tell me where in those letters it says he makes covenants.

GARY DEMAR

It does not say that. That is my point. The word antichrist is never used in connection with covenant-making. But here is the bigger point: what is our blessed hope? Are we waiting for the return of Christ? Yes — absolutely. Is he coming back? Yes, for the consummation of all things. But the Rapture as a separate event from the second coming is not what Scripture teaches. The Rapture as popularly conceived was essentially constructed from a particular reading of Daniel 9 in order to create a specific sequence of events — God dealing with Israel again during a future seven-year period. And in that supposed plan, two-thirds of the Jews are slaughtered during the Great Tribulation. So God waits 2,000 years to finally redeem Israel, and then allows Antichrist to slaughter two-thirds of them? That is from Zechariah, taken out of context.

KENT HOVIND

Here is my position as laid out in my book and on my chart — and the discussion tonight has not changed any of it. Jesus comes back at the end of the seven-year tribulation, catches us up to heaven, and we go to the marriage supper of the Lamb while the wrath of God falls on the world for approximately 1,040 days. I get that number because in Daniel 8, someone asks how long the temple is going to be desolate, and the answer is 2,300 days. During the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the temple was only desolate for about 1,075 days — so this refers to a future desolation. The temple is going to be desolated in the middle of the seven years for 2,300 days. That is the red stripe on my chart.

After we are caught up to the marriage supper of the Lamb, God pours out his wrath on the world for almost three years. Then we come back, Jesus fights the Battle of Armageddon, Satan is cast into the pit for a thousand years. A thousand years later Satan is released. Then comes the Great White Throne Judgment — that is when all things are settled. So there is still a Thousand-Year period coming, including a time of wrath. There are 50 verses in the Bible that talk about the wrath of the Lord; the wrath falls in the day of the Lord. We saw where the sun and the moon go dark before the day of the Lord begins — and we are raptured out. All ten references to the sun and moon going dark are on my chart right here, starting in Isaiah 13 and ending with Revelation 6:12.

GARY DEMAR

Now, I want to come back to the sun and moon going dark. You mentioned Isaiah 13:10. That is the first reference. But when did that happen?

KENT HOVIND

It has not happened yet — that is still future.

GARY DEMAR

Isaiah 13 is an oracle against Babylon. Read the chapter: it is the day of the Lord's judgment upon Babylon. The language of the sun and moon going dark is descriptive language that the Old Testament uses for the fall of nations. When Babylon fell, the sun went dark — that is the metaphorical language of the passage, just as the stars falling to earth in Revelation 12 are symbolic of the fallen angels. You yourself agreed that Revelation 12 is symbolic — those are not literal astronomical bodies falling to the earth, they are symbols of Satan drawing a third of the angels with him. Well, the same kind of cosmic language is used throughout the Old Testament to describe the fall of nations.

How is Israel described in the Old Testament? In Genesis 37, Joseph's dream: sun, moon, and stars bowing down to him. In Revelation 12, the woman clothed with the sun and the moon at her feet and twelve stars on her head — that represents Israel. No one thinks that is a literal woman floating in space big enough to stand on the moon. These are symbols. And the falling of the sun and moon and stars is symbolic of the fall of nations — it does not require a literal astronomical event. That is a consistent hermeneutic all the way through.

KENT HOVIND

I would say Isaiah 13 has a double meaning — like many scriptures do. He is going to judge Babylon, and this is symbolic of how he is going to judge the whole world one day. There is no historical record in any ancient society of the sun and moon literally going dark when Babylon fell.

GARY DEMAR

Exactly — because it is descriptive language! The same language is used in Joel, in Matthew 24, in Revelation. The sun and moon going dark are symbols of the fall of a political or national entity. That is their consistent usage.

KENT HOVIND

What about Revelation 6, where stars are thrown down to the earth? If an actual star hit the earth, it would destroy it.

GARY DEMAR

Right — so that tells us it is symbolic. The very fact that a literal reading is physically impossible tells you it is using figurative language. And Revelation 12, where a third of the stars of heaven are swept down by the dragon's tail — you yourself agreed that those are symbolic of the fallen angels. So you are already interpreting the stars symbolically in one chapter. The question is whether you apply that consistently. I would argue yes: the sun, moon, and stars language throughout Scripture is covenantal and symbolic of the fall of political powers.

KENT HOVIND

About the 1948 issue you raised: I don't know where the figure of 40 years as a generation comes from. Psalm 90 says the days of a man's life are "threescore and ten" — 70 years — and if by strength they are fourscore, that is 80. So in my book I said I obviously do not know when the Lord is coming, but if I had to guess, I would say 2028 — and here is my reasoning: 1948 plus 80 years is 2028. That would put the start of the tribulation in the near term. We shall see. I am not setting a date, but I think a serious time is coming. The Jews are going to be slaughtered by the thousands, and so are Christians. It is going to be a horrible time for everybody.

GARY DEMAR

This is precisely the problem. Hal Lindsey was wrong. Chuck Smith was wrong. Edgar Whisenant — who claimed to be a NASA scientist and wrote 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988 — was wrong, and then wrote another book saying he forgot to add a year for the BC-to-AD transition, so really it would be 1989. Oswald J. Smith, in a book written in 1927, declared that Mussolini was the Antichrist with all the Bible verses people use today — until Mussolini was executed in 1945. Smith would actually buy back copies of that book from anyone who brought one to his speaking events. When Hal Lindsey said 1948 was the prophetically significant year, 40 years later — 1988 — nothing happened. So they shifted to 1967 and the Six-Day War: 40 plus 67 equals 2007. Well, here we are in 2020 and nothing has happened on that timetable either.

I became a Christian in 1973 — I was 23 years old, a senior in college on an athletic scholarship, and I ran into an old college friend in a pub in Ann Arbor, Michigan during a track meet. He started talking about The Late Great Planet Earth. Frankly I was not paying that much attention to the eschatology — I was paying more attention to the gospel because I needed a new life in Christ, and I found it that night. But he encouraged me to read The Late Great Planet Earth. I did — and then I started reading the Gospel of Matthew, and I came across passages that just did not fit Lindsey's framework. That book sold about 27 million copies and was designated the most popular non-fiction book of the 1970s. Kent and I might agree it was probably also the most popular fiction book of the 1970s.

The problem is not that the people who hold these positions are insincere — they are often very sincere. The problem is that they keep reading their framework into Daniel 9:24–27, and that framework is not in the text. I want to know: is there a gap between the sixty-ninth and seventieth week? Is that gap indicated in the passage? No. Is the Antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9:24–27? No. Is there mention of a covenant being made with Israel, broken, and a temple rebuilt? No. None of those things are in the passage.

KENT HOVIND

Daniel does mention the temple and a covenant being confirmed with many — I take that as the Antichrist making a seven-year treaty that he later breaks. You take it as Jesus confirming the New Covenant. That is the fundamental difference.

GARY DEMAR

And the New Testament itself supports that reading. Romans 15:8 says Jesus came to confirm the promises made to the fathers. Matthew 26:28: Jesus says, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is shed for many." Jesus is the one who confirmed the covenant with many. That is Jesus, not the Antichrist.

Q&A — MARK OF THE BEAST AND OTHER TOPICS

AUDIENCE MEMBER

You won't be able to buy and sell if you don't get the mark. Did that happen before AD 70?

GARY DEMAR

I think the mark of the beast is parallel to the mark of the Lamb. In Revelation 13 there are actually two beasts — a sea beast, which I take to represent first-century Rome, and a land beast, which I take to represent apostate Israel. They colluded with one another — you can see it throughout Scripture and history. John 19:15: when Pilate asked, "Shall I crucify your king?" they responded, "We have no king but Caesar." There is the collusion between Rome and apostate Israel.

The number 666 — there is more speculation on 666 than perhaps anything else in eschatology. But I believe the mark is symbolic in the same way that Deuteronomy 6 is symbolic. Deuteronomy 6:8 says to bind God's words as a sign on your hand and as frontlets on your forehead. That was not meant literally for most people in Israel — it is about what you do with your hands and what you think in your mind. The mark of the beast is similarly about allegiance: who do you serve? And in the very next chapter, Revelation 14, those who follow the Lamb also have a mark. If the 666 is supposed to be a literal tattoo on the forehead and hand, then what is the literal physical mark of the Lamb? The marks are parallel — they are about allegiance.

KENT HOVIND

I have been teaching for 25 years that Revelation 13 is going to cause all to receive a mark in the right hand or forehead, and you will not be able to buy or sell without it. "Here is wisdom: 600 threescore and six" — 666. I predict there will be some kind of electronic chip, and you will not be able to buy or sell without a computer chip implanted in your hand or your forehead. I think that is what is coming.

A friend of mine in Arkansas — his company helped design these chips. They were given a million dollars to find what part of the human body changes temperature the most, so they could power a chip with body heat. Any mother could tell you: you check for a fever at the forehead or the back of the hand. And they found that the right hand changes temperature more than the left hand because it is slightly further from the heart. So I strongly suspect we are going to see a microchip that has to be implanted in the right hand or forehead, and you will not be able to buy or sell without it. That is what I think is coming rapidly.

GARY DEMAR

But going back to the key point: the Rapture — in all five of its positions — is dependent on Daniel 9:24–27. Supposedly the Antichrist is mentioned there — no mention of an Antichrist. Supposedly there is a gap between the sixty-ninth and seventieth week — no mention of a gap. Supposedly the Antichrist is going to make a covenant with Israel, rebuild the temple, and then break the covenant — none of those things are mentioned in Daniel 9:24–27. All those other topics are interesting and important, but the Rapture topic — which all the positions depend upon — is dependent on that passage. And those things are simply not found in it.

No one that I have read on this — and I have an extensive library on eschatology, nearly 20,000 books — has been able to demonstrate from the text itself that those elements are there. They even admit they are getting them from other places. I like to stick to the text of Scripture. And the text does not mention those items.

AUDIENCE MEMBER

So your position is the 70 weeks have already come and passed — and the day of Christ is still ahead of us, but the 70 weeks has nothing to do with that?

GARY DEMAR

That is fair. Yes, I will take that.

AUDIENCE MEMBER

So are we still waiting for the man of sin to be revealed? The falling away?

GARY DEMAR

There is a great deal of speculation about who the man of lawlessness was. But 2 Thessalonians 2:6–7 says: "You know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work." Paul is writing to the first-century Thessalonian church, and he says the mystery of lawlessness was already at work in his day, and the man of lawlessness was being restrained. Whatever or whoever the restrainer was, the man of lawlessness was a first-century figure.

KENT HOVIND

If the Antichrist was restrained in Paul's day and was not yet revealed, then he would have to be over 2,000 years old today — unless it refers to Satan, who predates creation itself. But the Antichrist is supposed to be a human being.

GARY DEMAR

Exactly — and that is another reason I think the man of lawlessness is a first-century figure. He was being restrained in Paul's day. Once the restrainer was removed, he was revealed and judged — and Paul expected this to happen within the lifetime of those he was writing to. I have two chapters on 2 Thessalonians 2 in my book Last Days Madness if you want to explore this further.

CLOSING REMARKS

KENT HOVIND

Probably I should have read all of Matthew 24, because they asked him, "Lord, when are you coming? What is the sign?" And for the next 23 verses in Matthew he tells them what is going to happen. Your position is that all of this happened before AD 70 — many came saying "I am Christ" and deceived many, wars and rumors of wars, the gospel preached in the whole world, nations rising against nation, pestilence, earthquakes, persecution, false prophets arising, the love of many waxing cold. And then: "But he that shall endure to the end shall be saved." What does "the end" mean in AD 70, in your view?

GARY DEMAR

It is the end of that age — the end of the old covenant age. And "the whole world" in Matthew 24:14 — the Greek word there is not kosmos, it is oikumene, the same word used in Luke 2:1 for the Roman world that Caesar Augustus taxed. If you look at Colossians 1:23, Paul says the gospel "has been preached to every creature under heaven" — present perfect tense. Romans 1:8 says the faith of the Roman Christians was known throughout the whole world. Romans 16 says the gospel has been made known to all the nations. This language, kept consistent, is not talking about the whole globe — it is talking about the inhabited world of their particular day. That is why "this generation" in verse 34 refers to the generation Jesus was speaking to, not some future generation.

The Greek word for "generation" there is genea — not genos (race) or ethnos (nation). It is always used in the Gospels to refer to the generation contemporaneous with Jesus. If Jesus had a future generation in mind he would have said "that generation." "This generation" is a near demonstrative, referring to those present.

KENT HOVIND

Many people take "this generation" in verse 34 to refer to the generation that sees the events of verses 32–33 — which is still future. That is the alternate interpretation.

GARY DEMAR

But that requires you to import a different referent into the same word used consistently everywhere else in the Gospels. That is not a sound hermeneutic.

KENT HOVIND

Well, we have gone almost two hours here. Let me give my final position: Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 describe events that are still future. We are going to face a seven-year period of tribulation, followed by the Rapture — though perhaps not many will be caught up. Luke 18:8: "When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" I think most of us are going to be killed in the next seven or eight years. I believe we are going to see incredible persecution of Christians worldwide. I hope there is still time of peace in America, but it may not be. So that is my position — my book covers it all in detail.

GARY DEMAR

And my position remains: the key passage used for all five Rapture positions — Daniel 9:24–27 — does not contain the elements required to support those positions. No gap is indicated between the sixty-ninth and seventieth week. No Antichrist is mentioned. No covenant being made with Israel and then broken. No rebuilt temple is described. I like to stick to the text. Those things are simply not found in that passage. However, I do agree with Kent and hold in common the future bodily return of Jesus Christ and the consummation of all things. I am simply contesting the prophetic framework built from Daniel 9 that is used to support the five Rapture positions. Those elements are not in the passage.

I will say this about Kent: it is very difficult to change a very popular theological position that millions of people believe — especially when you are a preacher and a public figure. Changing the position can be costly. Friends, pastors have lost churches over this. Kent told me it has cost him dearly — thousands of churches will no longer have him because he is no longer pre-trib. It took 40 years for Kent to move from pre-trib to his current post-trib, pre-wrath position. I will give you 40 more years, Kent — and maybe you will land on my side. Thank you very much for having me. It was an honor to meet you.

KENT HOVIND

Thank you for coming, Gary — it was a pleasure. And thank you all for listening. If you would like my book, go to drdino.com. Gary's books — including Last Days Madness, Wars and Rumors of Wars, Is Jesus Coming Soon?, The Gog and Magog Prophecy, The Early Church and the End of the World, The Day and the Hour, and The Rapture and the Fig Tree Generation — are available at AmericanVision.org. If you are not a Christian tonight, you should be thinking seriously about what happens in the future, because you are going to die, and you are going to be dead for a really long time. Give your heart to the Lord. Thanks for joining us — see you tomorrow.